I am looking forward to this series.

I suspect that this series will be eye opening to what has become of the downtown, and how it effects the entire city.

I'm curious to know if adding "more seats" in our community actually increases the number of customers in our downtown on any given Saturday night. It seems to me that anyone that wants a drink in Royal Oak is going to find one without a problem. I would think that adding more seats or another venue would simply allow the customers we have to spread out a bit. It would certainly force venues to compete for customers a little more. My wife and I moved to downtown Royal Oak 8 years ago to have walking access to the theatres, music and nightlife here. We love it and we're very excited to see all of the new projects happening and hear about what's on the horizon. I'm glad the city council has loosened up a bit.

These guys know City Hall inside out. Finally we’re going to get the facts about what’s been going on.

“Loosened up a bit” you say… This bar nightmare has crossed the line and the neighborhoods are paying for it with a big fat millage increase.

Watch this youtube video of our tax dollars down the drain (copy and paste it into your browser if it does not show up as a link):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHKf8w1EsuU

"Loosened up a bit?"

That would be an appropeiate comment if the city were under their State liquor license
quota.

Royal Oak is so loose with liquor licenses already that they need to tighten up.

Andy, how many more bars would you like to see?

I'd like to see every business downtown turned into a bar. I mean, honestly, that's where it's headed, right? (sarcasm)

The question is not about customers, the question is about the amount of city resources needed per seat, who is paying for said resources, and if there has been an increase in the number of police/fire calls as the number of seats has increased.

It is also a matter of prudent urban planning. Is there a tipping point after which venues begin to lower standards to draw patrons? (I doubt we want to have the nonsense that passes for fun in Pontiac.) Does an ever expanding number of bar seats crowd out other uses?

I, too, live within walking distance of the downtown. My biggest concern is my observation of a deterioration of level of maturity of those coming to Royal Oak. We are getting far too many 20-30 something adolescences who think they can come here and act like a moron - wrestling in the streets, yelling down Main Street in the middle of the night, getting drunk to the point of being sick. This is especially true on what I will call "Power Drinkers Alley", also known as 5th Ave between the tracks and Washington.

Are the types of establishments we are adding contributing to this deterioration?

For the record, I voted against the original moratorium, mainly because it just prevented new venues from opening with transferred licenses (an escrowed license would still get consideration), and the promise that each applicant would receive a full vetting. Maybe we need to strengthen our review criteria.

James... I was out and about the downtown on St Patrick's day and yes it was exceptionally busy due the holiday falling on a Saturday and the extremely mild weather. I was out with some friends. We ate, we drank, we had a great time downtown all night! ... As for your videos, I saw them and I find them a little fanatical and kind of pointless. Sorry.

Karen... I really don't think I'd like to see any more bars at all. I am however a big believer in supply and demand and competition in business. I believe there is a finite amount of customers for our bars and restaurants. If you open a new one will a different one go out of business? I'm not really sure. Sooner or later that would be the case though. More seats at some point will simply be empty seats and the bar owners will have to compete for business a little harder.

An example of my comment about "Loosening up" would be when they gave Fifth Avenue a dance license so that they could have live music on their fabulous stage. I find it amazing that music and dancing was such a big deal.

I moved to downtown Royal Oak two years ago, and can say it has gotten progressively worse since then. Forget about getting any sleep on Friday and Saturday nights. Once the bars close, there is nothing but screaming drunks, cars and motorcycles burning rubber and constant horn honking.

No offence Andy S, and I am not sure what your realm of experience of fantastic night spots is , but the stage at 5th avenue is far from “Fabulous”. I was there for a fund raiser not so long ago and was amazed at just how subpar the place was. A big open space with horrible acoustics, it was dirty and grungy and obvious that no real investment had been made to the place in the last few years since it reopened. But of course, 20 something kids don’t care about that, and it is the owners who are making a killing. It is a money making machine. Dancing isn’t the issue. But bringing something new to the table is! And that was the current commission’s argument against the moratorium, that they would only open places that brought something new and different to RO. Other than the few, really great new bistros that have opened (Pizza Biga being one) there is nothing great about any of the mega places. These places not only don’t bring anything of value to Royal Oak’s night life, but also tend to attract a clientele that is young and somewhat unsophisticated. My friend’s college kid, home for the summer got a job at Emagine and lasted only 2 nights, one night only making $4 in tips which wasn’t even enough to cover his parking! I should also mention another commission argument was the amount of jobs these places would create. $4 a night is a good job?

Loud drunks on the weekend at 2:30 and beyond, just shouting to one another or getting in fights, garbage pickups at restaurants next to homes are happening anywhere from 3:30 to 5:30 AM - waking people out of sound sleep with the car-crash type noises from picking up the dumpsters.). It has gotten worse and worse.

Read the patch's crime recap and tell me there aren't bigger problems to address! The city counsel should be doing NOTHING until the crime in this city is under control. If they figure out how to grant another liquor license before they figure out how to hire another police officer I say we start getting rid of these royal oak politicians.

With Royal Oak police officers tied up downtown on weekends, has anyone ever done an analysis of the residential breaking and entering, thefts and other emergencies during that time? Wonder what the added response time is if you need police help you pay taxes for and they are tied up with breaking up a bar fight or getting a drunk patron to stop laying in the middle of Main Street. Seems the bars are able to use RPD as their personal security force.

At first, in an attempt to turn us in to another Chicago, we got just about every Liqour License / Bar in to our Town, with ALL the ugliness and filth that comes along. Then, when it began to turn in to another Pontiac, the City Hall is to quick to cry us a story of needing more Public Safety taxes!? Really!? I say - they get NOTHING! The only thing they will get from us, could be described by one single word in another language - ZOOBBIE !!

I do not think,that this problem will ever cease.!!!! I think that the city will,just keep adding more and more liquar establishments,they will move just a little farther north on Main St. I don't know too many people who will be supporting a millage,no matter what it's for. I guarantee you one thing is for certain,,the city will use scare tactics and threaten residences if they don't vote on a millage the Po-Po will be gone. They do this every time,it is no more.!!!!!!!

I don't think the bad grammar and bad punctuation will ever cease. Honestly...at least try to FAKE being educated. Your statements hold absolutely no water if you can't express them in a logical way.

So who's up for some beers downtown tonight ?

I'll be at Baconfest. See you there.

City leaders need to charge a fee on liqour establishments in the "BUSINESS" or "ALCOHOL" district to pay for police services that the residents are being put at jeoprady for.

Let's all take a deep breath and remember to comment on the topic and not each other.

If the Patch is willing to publish another opinion, as a restaurant owner in downtown Royal Oak, I would like to share a side that disagrees with Mr. Andrzejak. I have been a brewpub restaurant owner and "one with a good trach record" since 1995 in downtown. Please let me know if you are interested.

Drew Ciora
Royal Oak Brewery

Drew, thanks for your interest. Please contact Judy.Davids@Patch.com or call 248.231.4667 about submitting a Letter to the Editor or creating your own blog.

Beth,

Thanks for the follow up. I am only interested in responding to Mr. Andrzejak's comments, not a blog or Letter to the Editor. I understand that he is an Ex-Commisioner and probably holds more clout than a business owner in downtown Royal Oak, but he does not necessarily understand how businesses operate or have survived under his tenure in our downtown. I strongly disagree with Mr. Andrzejak's opinion (remember that it is only his opinon) and would only be interested in writing a response on why I disagree with his points. Please feel free to contact me if interested. The RO Patch does a great job in covering issues and events in our town. Thank you!

Drew Ciora

Mark it is not news to me that Emagine owns the parking lot, however the signs clearly state that cars that do not pay will be ticketed or towed. This would lead anyone to assume that the city has permission to ticket. Unless the city has been asked not to enforce. I have neverTh seen a single ticket or tow truck which is not true of Royal Oak Main at least in the past. If there is no enforcement this could be the best kept secret in town. The parking structure owned by an independent company in Chicago has staff there at least in the evenings though I believe it is not as well checked the rest of the time.
As far as the motorcycles I have only ONCE seen a rider being threatened with a ticket at an empty meter in front of Jimmy Johns and you are aware that the city spent a bundle on these high tech meters that are not expected to pay a profit for a few years. In front of Mr.B's, Starbucks and other hot locations there are up to four or more bikes diagonally parked in one space and I seldom see money in those meters. You would think that the establishments profiting would at least feed the meters for them. Only in you dreams will you ever see one motorcycle in one parking space. There is obviously some deference being shown to large gatherings of cycles.

ALERT Last nite saturday June 9th Carribou coffee had just closed. Myself and a friend were sitting on the concrete wall around the tree in front Carribou talking while a parade of young people leaving the bars flooded the street about 1:30 am. Suddenly we heard a scream, a young girl very drunk running to beat the walk light wearing sandals had tripped and fallen almost hitting her head on concrete tree wall right behind me. With the help of a signature gatherer we managed to lift her after asking if whe was hurt to sit down, she was incoherent.
After ten minutes she managed to unsteadily rise and walk home which she said was about two blocks refusing further assistance. Realize she could have fallen in the path of cars driven by young distracted graduation celebrators. She also came within inches of suffering a severe concussion. Main was wall to wall party busses. From what I understand this is the situation inside these mega bars concerning mostly these very young girls. First profanity flys all over with the F word coming from young males in search of getting lucky. I saw one drunk male yell at a couple of young girls from behind a sexual invitation I can't repeat. I now believe that some of the guys that get clocked may have deserved it. I will continue in the next comment.

If you trace the source the problem originates in what is allowed by RO's DDA, liquor control commission and Police who do not look for violations involving overserving so prevalent every summer weekend. Again these bars are the tail that wags the dog. You the residents are that dog and if that young girl is your daughter thats your problem. From what others have observed the guys will buy the drinks and pass them down to those that are already too drunk to order their own. Mostly females.
The bartenders don't care, they do not want to risk getting fired for refusing to serve although it is obvious that one individual does not order several drinks only for himself. Tips are another motivation not to refuse service.
Plain clothes police with hidden cameras could easily stop this but wait, consider the possibility that the main job of the police is to assist these bars while they are not writing tickets for left hand turns. I would not say that this is intentional on the part of the police department after all they just do the job our politicians want them to do. This is real life in Royal Oak's entertainment district under the influence

Something positive I really enjoyed the glass and ceramic art on Washingon, kudos to the hard working organizers. Royal Oak could easily be the best city in Michigan if city officials were motivated to get a handle on the cancer of out of control bars that like a wolf in sheeps clothing pretend to be Ha Ha restaurants.

Thank you for taking the time to report your observations—both good and bad.
My college age sons and many of their friends rarely hang-out late night in RO any more for precisely the scenario you describe in your comments (no my sons and their friends aren’t geeks or puritans)--They just don’t want to expose themselves or girlfriends to that nonsense/vibe and prefer to go to venues in neighboring communities including Detroit where (in their words) “people don’t get so crazy and it isn’t so nuts.”

I agree with you –this city is a gem. I only hope what’s going on downtown will be reigned-in before something truly tragic happens to one of these drunk young guests.

There was a movie made that reminds me of this issue concerning the "Alcohol District" which, is not a district it is the whole of downtown Royal Oak. The movie, which most everyone has seen or heard of is "IT'S A WONDERFUL LIFE". We either have "BEDFORD FALLS" or "POTTER'S VILLE". We the resident's have been sold a bill of goods from the city leaders, COMMISSIONER'S, concerning the direction of downtown Royal Oak, at the detriment of the residents and neighborhoods. It looks like "POTTER'S VILLE" to me. This is not the directions I hoped for the City of Royal Oak's downtown, I wished that downtown Royal Oak would have been more like "Grosse Pointe Village". A BALANCE of reatil and RESTRAUNTS!!! Downtown Royal Oak was NEVER meant to be an "ENTERTAINMENT DISTRICT"! It was a "horse stop" between Detroit and Pontiac, and meant to service the resident's and local communities. Some commissioners run for office saying that they are not in support of new or expanding ALCOHOL establishments, yet their votes contridicate their campaign! Recalls of those city commissioners needs to happen, then perhaps candidates for office will uphold their campaign statements. This city is not that of the commission, but that of the PEOPLE!!!!!

Just to expand on the historical concept of Royal Oak, that which is to service the residents and local communities. Neighborhoods surrond the downtown so that the residents could access the downtown for their needs. It is also the reason why parking is a problem. The resident's in the surronding neighborhoods of the downtown should not have to tolerate the problems they endure. These are residents of the city and need to express their issues at every city council meeting, form organizations, and don't let the city leaders dictate to them.

If you are preaching to me DT you are preaching to the choir—I whole heartedly agree with many of your statements—I’ve lived in this town in several different ring neighborhoods for more than 35 years. I’m not whining but it’s been a lot of hard work to live here—you can only dedicate so much of your time attending or reading minutes from commission, zoning, planning meetings, rallying your neighborhood to comment at commission meetings and baby-sitting elected officials to make sure they keep campaign promises once elected…

The special interests bar/developers/commercial property owners schmooze and hang out at city hall all day long and they can afford to it’s their livelihood!!! The rest of us regular “Oakies” have jobs to go to, families to raise, college tuition to pay--There’s a limit –at times it feels like a losing battle this constant battle with City Hall---When I think back about how hard we all worked for a new Master Plan only to have elected officials throw it away one irresponsible vote after another-- it’s truly heart breaking.

But the inner neighborhoods did win the main point of not being forcibly re-developed. No one has re-visited that. Yes, keeping on top of things does get tiring, doesn't it?

There are people in this town who will if it affects them personally rise to the challenge of laissez faire development primed by political payoffs, er I mean legitimite political contribtions that are unrelated to voting for or against of course!
The opposition to the expansion of Royal Oak waste failed possibly because those affected were neither persitent nor organized enough.
Though I was not a resident when the issues of re-development came up I am aware of how plans to take down beautiful homes were successfully thwarted.
RO citizens are well educated and will not just sit back and watch their town being taken over by problem bars and party busses dropping off kids already half tanked.
Otherwise I would not waste my time typing.

I personally work in the service industry. I won't specify the bar I work at. I will say that Royal Oak is going downhill, and it's there own fault. As a consequence of over saturation of bars, the crowd is getting worse and worse. DIVERSIFY the economy. I've had to deal with to many dine and dashes, fights, and just witnessed my table get an Iphone stolen from herein broad daylight. Think of the service industry employees for once.

Royal Oak is no longer Bedford Falls. It is fast becomming Pottersville.

Bars don't improve themselves from shot and beer joints to white linen establishments. Just the opposite happens. They start off saying they are going to be some sort of upscale operation, and they all end up being Sports bars.

All it would take is a couple votes from the City Commission to create a PSD that would allow the special assessment tax of property owners within the designated area to pay for their own security.

Our elected officials need to look out for the best public safety and financial interests of ALL Royal Oak taxpayers—not just the interests of bar owners, land holders and developers in the downtown.

The Mayor and his pro-bar majority need to create a PSD and special assess their wealthy downtown political campaign contributors to pay increased taxes –instead of expecting the rest of us to subsidize security for the liquor industry with a huge millage increase.

I’ve provided a link to the Michigan Economic Development Corporation fact sheet concerning Principal Shopping Districts and Business Improvement Districts, if readers would like to learn more about this public safety funding option.

http://www.michiganadvantage.org/cm/Files/Fact-Sheets/BusinessImprovementDistrict.pdf

Debbie, thanks for the link.

I couldn't have said what you said, any better.

I am a great believer in the sage advice of Ben Franklin who valued the volunteer spirit Debbie. First Mike and Chuck were and still are part of a system of political patronage that we all verbally detest yet accept as unchangable and we have now reached a point where the majority of the mega-midnite-vomitoriums collectively do not relish any further competition, which "forces" them to request expansions to "compete" with the newer venues. I reiterate that I was told state law does not permit liquor establishments to be singled out for special taxes, and to have a special asessment district would be unfair to retail and the non-alcoholic cafes and sandwich shops. So while I am interested in your suggestion I fear it may not be workable. In any case I prefer to try the carrot before bringing out a stick (unfortunately, the only carrots commissioners respond to are in the form of generous campaign contributions).
I would like to state here and now a novel solution that would be voluntary and yet duly noted. We all are aware that the police and fire overtime, and the calling in of outside police for special bar centered situations is draining public safety and unfairly reaching into the pockets of angry residential taxpayers whose neighborhoods suffer, only so the bars can stuff their pockets.
I would like to request that bars such as Black Finn, O'Tools, Mr. B's and even the Emagine, who while they do contribute to charity should cease contributing to RO politicians (cont.)

(continued)-should cease contributing to RO politicians immediately and instead if they genuinely desire community recognition contribute to the improvement of our downtown park, Stardream Fountain (water attraction), and Farmer's Market as well as a special fund for extraneous public safety costs that is are not covered by the DDA's two extra officers. Now that would benefit the entire business district as well as residents. The first to step up to the plate would be the first to receive recognition and I am sure the Patch would assist.
This is do-able as there is no violation of the law. The question is which bar will be the first to step foward with a generous gift.? I would like to see if it is Black Finn, or Mr.B's. or the EMagine who are already somewhat concerned and have a history of generosity.
An added benefit would be the curtailing of our elected special interest "lapdogs" that are easily identifiable by the contributions they receive from bars, restaurants and non-residents. Another will be the possible avoidance of having to decide between the looming public safety milage and the very necessary education milage that is presently being kept under wraps. This is not a joke. I am serious. You have a choice of a voluntary self imposed tax gift from the root cause , another being bankruptcy with and EFM. The disparity between downtown and residential services must end now.